Making Men out of Boys

Dear Bro Jo -

I have only recently discovered your column and I must say that I find it not only entertaining, but also enlightening. I have read through your collection of YSA targeted letters but I have yet to encounter one that could apply to my particular situation.

I am a 19 year old college student who has grown up in a densely LDS populated area, and am now attending school in the same densely LDS populated area. I didn't go on a lot of casual dates during high school, I had boyfriends. I am now regretting that because I don't quite have an idea of what I like in men. I would like to just date around, do some casual dating as you have defined it.

But when I discussed this with my male associates, "friends" from my singles ward (I use friends loosely), they told me that is a very immature idea because I should be trying to get married; I should be dating more exclusively. I don't feel ready to get married because I don't know what I like! They tell me that if I want to get to know what kind of qualities I like in men then I should just hang out with them, but no dates because that is leading men on since I have no intention of being in a relationship. What is your take on this? If you need more information, feel free to ask and if you choose to publish this, I ask that you keep my name and email confidential.

- (name withheld)


Dear NW -

I promise that if I publish our "discussion" in the column to withhold your personal information, and thank you for the permission to publish; I suspect you're not alone in how you feel . . .

Let me start by saying that it sounds to me like your "male associates" (well phrased, by the way) are Cheap and Cowardly (and you can tell them I said that).

A date is not "leading a man on"! (These are Church guys, right? Just exactly what do they think is owed to them because they took a girl to a movie??!?) The idea that a girl should only agree to go out with someone she already knows really well, has "hung out with" (more on that in a moment), and is willing to make a commitment to is absurd to the point of . . . dare I say it? . . . Yes! . . . asinine.

In the beginning a date is nothing more than an opportunity for two people to get to know each other better; it does not, in any way shape or form, imply a commitment. If the date goes well, and the two people are interested in spending more time together, perhaps seeing if there's something more there, then they should date again.

It's never a good idea to go deliberately hunting for a spouse or even a committed relationship. The way you find a Good Person (especially a potential spouse) is by making yourself available to meet people.

The "hang out" is a guy scam, perpetrated by Cheap and Cowardly Boys (not manly enough to be Men) who like the companionship of women, and are hoping to enjoy something physical (or at least some free food), perhaps even find a gullible girl to marry, without having to invest their time, money or soul. They're taking the "easy road", and too many of you Young Sisters fall for it and allow it to happen.

NW, very few guys will date you if they think they can spend time with you for free.

It's the "hang out" that's immature, NW, regardless of what they say.

So here's my advice:

1) Don't tell anyone that you're not looking for a relationship. If you find a Good Guy you may change your mind, and announcing that you're "Not Looking" drives away date offers and Good Guys. You don't have to have a relationship with anyone you don't want to, and a date is not an engagement.

2) Don't get caught in the "hang out" trap. No guys allowed over. The occasional FHE or group activity is a good idea, but I'd limit those to Ward sponsored events. If a bunch of guys invite a bunch of girls over to watch a video, maybe once in a while that's OK, but you sisters will be doing yourselves a disservice, whether you're ready for a relationship or just want to go out on some casual dates, if you let the boys get away with this garbage.  (And for the record, you Sisters who agree to go on Guy-Girl Camp Outs are - read this twice - Out of Your Minds!)

3) I don't know what the girl equivalent of a Wingman is, but get one. Get several. Form your own Girl Posse. I'm not saying you should hang out in an intimidating Girl Group, Lonely Spice, but you and your fellow sisters need to act together and unite against Cheap Cowardly Boys. Have a "if you want to see us you need to take us out on dates" month.

4) Put some pressure on the guys. If they give you garbage about not "being social" or say that you're "mean", here are some retorts you can use:

  - "I'm not interested being social with Boys, I'm interested in talking to Men. Here's my phone number, if you're Man enough give me a call and ask me to dinner."


  - "I'm not mean, I just expect to be treated a certain way. I'm a woman, not your sister or cousin. I'd love to spend time with you, but not if you're going to treat me as no different than one of your buddies."


  - "I'm sorry that I've hurt your feelings. I'll tell you what: I'll make it up to you by letting you take me out on a date Friday. Go ahead; you ask and I'll say yes." (If he responds with anything close to "what will we do?" you say "oh, no, you're the man; it's your job to Plan, Pick up and Pay". If he doesn't have any ideas about what to do, have him email me.)


- "I can't hang out with you because I'm busy making myself available for dates."



At first read you may think I'm being harsh; I understand that. And you may get some reactions of shock. But I assure you that the shock will be a sign of respect, and what we're doing here is separating the Wheat from the Chaff (or the Men from the Boys, if you will) and that won't happen without some strength and some effort.

As more Sisters gain a testimony of demanding to be treated as Women instead of Relatives, the easier it will be for all of you.

But someone has to go first in your group.

Might as well be you!

- Bro Jo


PS - And thank you for your testimony of the value of Casual Group Dating and saving The Boyfriend-Girlfriend Thing for later!