Hanging Out VS Dating

Dear Bro Jo,

I really enjoy your blog! You give some great advice, and I appreciate how you tell it like it is. I wish dating could be more like that...Instead, I always feel like it's a guessing game with lack of honest communication, and dancing around issues at hand.

First off, I'll give a little background about myself...

I am 20 and 7 months old (if we are being exact haha) and I was born and raised a member of the LDS church. I was born and raised in a densely populated area of AZ, where there is almost an LDS bubble for members of the Church.

People are always concerned with what other people think.

Most girls I have talked with in observing the YSA wards here agree it's like watching a bunch of people caught up in a beauty competition or straight from the set of The Bachelor. Yet, nothing changes because everyone feels like they have to keep up, right? The girls all feel like they have to be fake tanned, perfectly put together all the time, and unnaturally bleached blonde.

The thing is that this area I grew up in just consists of a lot of beautiful people. Sounds weird, I know. Everything is centered on the outside of how a person looks and how people view one another. Because of this, all the single adults let their looks go to their head and they feel like they need to be super picky on searching for this male/female model they've conjured up in their heads. Not to mention someone who additionally is a righteous, worthy, and faithful member of the church.

 As a result, guys don't ask girls out because they are always looking for something better. Also, girls turn down guys for the same reason, therefore discouraging the guys from dating even more so. It is a cycle I suppose. It feels kinda like being in high school surrounded by all those awfully exclusive social circles all over again....bleh.

In addition, dating is viewed in a totally skewed concept. It's like going on a date or asking someone out equates to committing to a relationship. And heaven forbid anyone would ask a girl on a second date! Oh the horror, stop the presses! It would be as if they've proposed :). It is read to mean more than simply "getting to know someone you think may be interesting". Mix in picky men with commitment issues and "Houston, we have a problem".

All this aside, I have been trying to break this way of life everyone is aware that we have going on here. I try not to be too judgmental, try being social in talking to people I normally wouldn't, being accepting of people, etc. It's the whole dating thing that is hard. I know that it is not wise for women to ask the men out on dates. They need to feel like they are fulfilling that manly obligation or whatever. :) so you are supposed to flirt and get them to try and ask you out.
Because I have been striving to be more social and not worry so much abt what people think of me, etc. I have done a little better in meeting more people and it's been great.

My love life is practically non-existent. I have never been in a relationship (let alone a second date) and never been kissed. Everyone always seems shocked and puzzled by this...which is even more annoying.

Most of my dating life has been set up..I feel like I have dating experience, but at the same time I don't. Idk if that makes sense.

I recently went on a blind date. My close friend (we'll call him Bill) kept going on for a whole year about his friend (we'll call him Rob) who was on his mission. Bill thought Rob and I would be great together and so forth. He told me a lot abt him and showed me pics and stuff. I knew it was silly to get all crazy abt it. I told him that if he wanted to set us up on a date then I would definitely go and give it a shot. 3 months after Rob got back from the mission, Bill got Rob to call and ask me out on a double date with Rob's cousin who would ask a date too. It was a lot of fun! I feel like it went well. Rob was a gentlemen, and I found myself really interested in him by the end. I thought we had great laughs, chemistry, and conversation flow. Also, him having the cutest smile ever didn't hurt either ;). I got home really hoping that he would ask me out again.

A week later I still hadn't heard from him.

Yes, I know it was only a week...but I was starting to wonder about him! I was with my girlfriend at her house on a Saturday evening, and she convinced me to text him and say hello. I did, and we had a great conversation.

We flirted and it was great!

I found out he had broke his leg playing racquetball. I asked if he wanted me to bring him anything from an ice cream shop nearby, and he responded really well to me and said he would've loved that, but he was at his cousin's house. Then, another night Bill threw a small group game night. He said he had invited Rob. I went and loved seeing him again and it was a really fun time. Days after that, Bill said that Rob had told him that we should get a group together to go see a movie we all wanted to see. An extra ticket came available in the group that I had going to see the movie, so Bill said I needed to invite Rob. I invited him and he seemed happy to come. We texted further about it and it was great.

We had fun at the movie, and one of the girls in the group had gotten in a car accident on the way there due to the heavy rain. Accidents were a topic of our conversation, and the rain didn't let up after the movie. After I got home, I texted him to ask if he made it home in one piece. He said he had fun and thanked me for inviting him. We had similar group activities over the course of the weeks after in which I invited him (he came) and once he texted me about a get together that he heard I was hosting.

He told me he wanted to come but then at the last minute we found out only a few girls were coming, so he playfully suggested that I should just make it a girls night and he was going to spend time with his family. He added that he would be at the next one for sure. I agreed with his suggestion and told him I would postpone it for the next evening. More people RSVP'd the next day and so I messaged him during the party the next evening to see if he was coming. He had an exam to study for and an essay so he apologized and he couldn't come. However, he texted me a couple days later to ask me how it went and apologized he couldn't be there. We talked more and it was great. Then thanksgiving came and he was out of town, but I just hung out with him again because a group was going to see a new movie. I invited him to go when he got back in town and it was a lot of fun.

All in all, I guess I am just trying to figure out why he hasn't asked me out on another date, and what he is thinking about me. I have made it clear by all my actions that I am interested in him, and I flirt with him. He seems to respond well and still want to do things with me. What is he thinking?! Is he even interested in me? So confused with this guessing game. I am starting to wonder if he just wants to be friends. I never wanted to get him comfortable with just knowing he could always hang out with me and not ask me out in order to see me again, but everyone kept telling me that it was good and that being friends first and hanging out was great. They say that if he keeps wanting to come to things when I invite him then it is a good sign. Altogether since the date we have hung out three times and texted. I know he is busy and works/in school. Idk though I think I will stop inviting him to things and step back to see if he will maybe ask me out. This is what I should do right? Guessing games are no fun in dating!

Thank you for your time and patience...I am so sorry that this is so darn long!!

- Name Withheld




Dear NW,

Why should he ask you out?

You've arranged things so he can date you without having to Plan, Pick Up or Pay; he doesn't have to make any effort to see you, call you or text you because you do all of that for him!

Despite all of your efforts, you've allowed your "friend" (who sounds like one of a million confused and lazy Mormon guys to me) to coax you into perpetuating the same culture you and I are trying desperately to fix.

All is not lost!

You need to set "Rob" straight, and I think you need to go through "Bill" to do it.  Tell Bill that you like Rob, and you'd love to go out on some dates with him, but you're done being the man in this situation.  Bill needs to tell his buddy that if he wants to see you, if he wants to actually Get To Know You (can't really do that in a group - why people don't get that I have NO IDEA) then he should ask you out.

And then cut him off.

Rob will either take the bait or not.  And if he doesn't, well then, he's too dumb to date you.  You deserve better than that.

Seriously.

Quick story.

One of the Jo Boys was recently in an Elders' Quorum Lesson where the president admonished the members of his Quorum.  "Brethren, the semester is about to end.  There are lots of great sisters in this ward that have never been asked out; let's get that done before they all leave for the holidays".  So my dutiful son, who has had an average of two dates a week since coming home from his mission, followed the direction of his priesthood leader and set up four dates for the upcoming weekend.

The problem?

On the Wednesday following the admonishment the EQP called my son and said "I still don't have a date for this weekend; I was thinking a bunch of us could get together and ask out a bunch of the girls".

My son's reply?

"That's not a date, bro.  That's a group activity, you know, what priests and Laurels do."

Any wonder that EQP is still single in his late 20's?

Dates, Serious Single Dates, are one on one.  Guys need to live it, and girls need to enforce it.


I think the idea I gave you for Rob will work.  Give it a shot and let me know how it goes.

Good luck!

- Bro Jo


PS:  Believe me - this is not exclusive to your area.  The issues you're having are Church-wide, world-wide.

- Bro Jo