Dear Bro Jo:
Aloha, again. :-) Remember Mac & Cheese? We're back for more advice, this time on kissing. Some mommy content first then a note from her. (We're writing this email together.) Cheese is being very good for an almost-15 year old. Not dating. (Although, from a mommy perspective I'd LOVE to see you do a column on "What's a date." Not as in "Plan, pickup, pay." which is how it's defined when you *want* your kids to be dating--i.e. age 16 plus, but how do you define it when you're talking about an "underage" kid. We have SO many things come up that seem to be pushing the date/nondate line as far as possible. Like "What if I have 12 guy friends and zero girl friends over for a party--that's not a date, right, mom?" That's what happened last Saturday. Anyway, I digress...)
So of Cheese's enormous "merry band of lads" (as we call them--the guys who we don't call friends because "men & women can't be friends" but who are essentially really nice young men who are more than happy to take any excuse to spend some time in our home, watching a movie, playing games, eating ice cream, etc.) one particular lad seems a bit more equal in her estimation than the rest. A lot more equal. He's been a perfect gentleman, (doesn't touch her, sweet, kind, agrees that a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship would be inappropriate etc.) but he and Cheese clearly have a mutual crush going on, and lately seem to have quite a lot of discussion centered on the topic of kissing. I love that Cheese shares with me, but I thought maybe getting some outside input (from you) on what you think is appropriate would be nice. I'm also including some text conversations... just for fun. (We're calling the guy "QT." Because he *is*. :))
Cheese: Qt has just informed me that he is not going to kiss me until he gets yours and dad's permission first.]
Mommy: So he's planning on kissing you across the altar? Lol!
Cheese: If that's what it takes...haha
Mommy: Ok then...you can tell him you're worth the wait.
Cheese: Haha. If he actually asked you what would you say?
Mommy: IDK. He hasn't. What would you want me to say?
Cheese: Say yes!
Cheese: Here's the hard one. If he went up to dad and asked what would dad say?
Mommy: I would say your kisses don't belong to you to give away. They're the exclusive property of your future husband. So Qt would have to check with him. I'm pretty sure your dad would say something similar.
Mom & Cheese
OK you two - got your email - I'll need to catch my breath and put my Prayerful-ponder Hat on . . . I've got some answers, but I don't want to just shoot from the hip, so hang on for a day or two.
- Bro Jo
Tx! :) We'll look forward to hearing from you.
OK - here we go! Mom's first.
Dear Mom,
Well let's start with the "what's a date?" question first. To that end, here's:
"Bro Jo's DATE or NOT?"
Not - A bunch of kids over at the house watching a video (or any other activity), even if the numbers are even
Date - Kids at a movie theater that are paired up, Even If some in the group are not paired
Not - Kids over at your house for dinner
Date - Kids out to dinner (or any other meal) regardless if the guy pays for the girl or not, even if there's a non-paired kid or two
Not - Priest - Laurel Hiking activity
Date - Deacons and Beehives (or older) going anywhere in pairs that isn't a Church Activity, Even If there's adult supervision
Not - Etiquette Dinner at the Church - Even If the kids are paired up, the guy escorts the girl into where dinner will be held, pulls out her chair and sits by her.
Date - The same circumstances but not at the Church or your home
Not - Going to a Church Dance that IS NOT couples oriented, Even If he holds her hand from the side to the dance floor and they dance slow songs
Date - Going to ANY dance that is traditionally for couples, at Church or anywhere else. Church Winter Gala for Couples and two kids "just happen" to meet there and then spend most of the night together, yeah . . . that's a date. Formal Dance at school, like Homecoming, if it's mostly one guy - one girl, even if he didn't pick her up, buy her dinner, or get her flowers, it's still a date
I know it's a very fine line, and I appreciate the question. You know, Sister Jo and I don't necessarily agree on all of this, either. For example, she says that if a girl has a guy over to her place and they make cookies and watch a video, that's a Date. I say that's "hanging out", and therefore Not a Date, but my oldest boy asked "what if they make out at any point in the evening" and he's right, affection does elevate just about any circumstance to Date-like status, even if Grandma is in the room. If the love interest comes over for Family Game Night and/or Dinner, that's Not Quite a Date, but if after they hold hands on the porch . . . well that IS a Dating Activity.
And that of course, leads us to Cheese's letter . . .
- Bro Jo
[Readers: Check back Monday for part 2! - Bro Jo]
4 comments:
Any time spent alone on purpose or by accident without an adult present can be seen as a date. My daughter invited a friend to church. He thought it was a date and she thought she was being a good missionary and friend. In an attempt to be popular many girls, boys and parents are smudging the line of a date. I think you may want to reconsider your policy on video parties and ice cream socials. These events just bring familiarity at a young age and will encourage early dating even if the guys are super nice:)
I think your definition of "date" is just a touch too far. I agree that the line is getting smudged, and I agree that there are misguided parents trying to re-invent, relive, and re-write their own past . . . but I understand that a little bit, too. (As parents do we not want our kids to do better than we did?)
I don't see what happened to your daughter as a disaster. She invited a boy, he thought it was a date, it wasn't, we learn we communicate we move on.
(I hope both of you learned a little bit about how guys see the world . . . you may want to read through my "Guys and Girls as Just Close Friends" columns)
You may not be saying this, but I'm going to take your comment as an opportunity to expound a little about LDS parents that are overbearing and overprotective when it comes to their teens and dating: parents who stifle their child's social growth are doing them a serious disservice.
IMHO we, yes especially us Latter-day Saints, need to stop burying our children in fear; stop telling them they shouldn't date before their missions, stop discouraging them from attending dances, stop talking to them like every girl is a slut and every guy is only after sex.
We've raised a significant percentage of young people that are so terrified of immorality that they comeback from missions or enter college with no dating skills and no desire to date, let alone get married. Our fears are keeping these people from making holy covenants in the Temple. If you think I'm being extreme I ask you to witness how often our prophets and apostles find themselves teaching and encouraging Young Single Adults to date; something I'd argue is more prevalent because we parents are no longer offering the training we should.
We WANT the kids to be familiar! I'm not telling you to host a "spin-the-bottle" party. Be Present: teach your children how to relate to the opposite sex, how to treat each other with respect, and YES, how to date when the time comes.
I'd rather a 14 year-old girl kisses my 15 year-old son on the cheek when she's leaving a video party than he find himself 28 years old, alone, unmarried, and never-been-kissed.
And I wish parents and youth leaders would realize, just as you and your daughter did, that dancing and dating and socializing does have missionary application. No, I'm not saying that we should convert the world through dating and marrying outside our faith; what I'm saying is that there's intrinsic value in talking to someone in a new social setting, in meeting new people and getting to know them better, in putting the happiness and comfort of another ahead of yourself . . . things that dating can teach and can be applied in other aspects of life.
Sorry for the tirade. I really do appreciate the comment and thank you for reading and writing in.
- Bro Jo
I have to disagree with Mom telling Cheese that her kisses belong to her future husband. I'm not saying kisses should be given away like free candy, but they are an important symbol and act of affection before and after marriage.
I can't imagine getting married to someone I've never kissed before. In fact, it's a little disturbing and makes appropriate affection seem like a bad thing, which it is not.
I think your policy on dances in incorrect however. You use the word "traditionally," but dances like prom and homecoming haven't been just for couples for the past decade and that isn't changing. It's a nice thought, but I don't think dances work that way very much anymore. It's becoming the norm to go with a group of friends, even a single-sex group. I wouldn't qualify that as a date, especially if you don't spend the evening with one person.
LL,
When I ponder my stance on "couples only at formal dances" I'm often reminded about the end-of-the-school-year dance in one of my all-time favorite movies "It's a Wonderful Life". It's not really represented as Prom, but it is formal.
In the movie it seems like there are some couples, but most people are singles. I love the movie, and it causes me to wonder if I'm off base here . . .
[Tangent point: your characterization that formal school dances have seen an increase in non-couple attendance isn't exactly accurate; not only did it happen when I was in High School, several decades ago, but it was "typical" enough to be in a movie from 1946. So I think I was wrong when I said "traditionally".)
Here's where I'm coming from: I think guys, especially the "good ones" should be Expected to take a date to formal dances at school. As Sister Jo says: every girl wants to get dressed up, look her prettiest, and be escorted to a formal occasion in front of her friends; if Good Guys don't go, who are the Good Girls going to go with?
If a guy can't find a date, and a girl doesn't get asked, does that mean they should stay home?
No, I don't necessarily think so.
But maybe they should.
This is one of those rare opinions that I really go back and forth on. For the record, Sister Jo and I expect our sons (16 and up) to take a date. When my daughters are old enough, if a non-creepy guy asks them, I expect them to go. If they're not asked, I expect them to stay home.
Perhaps that's because I think there's something . . . obnoxious and . . . vaguely pathetic about a group of 14-year old girls in formal dresses "hanging out" at what, in my mind, should be a formal occasion . . .
I don't think dances have changed in 10 years. Heck, I don't think dances have changed in 30 years . . .
Perhaps you and I can at least agree that there's something not right with the way they are . . .
- Bro Jo
PS - Totally on the same page about kissing someone for the first time AFTER you've married them.
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