The following was left as a comment on one of my columns where I mentioned (yet again) my belief that, other than Husbands and Wives, Men and Women "Can't Be Friends".
I know this is a concept that drives some of you, particularly Young and Young Single Adult Women, into furious frustration . . .
But I'm not wrong.
At least not on this one.
For the Original Letter, Clik Here.
The Comment, then my response, follows.
Dear Bro Jo,
Sorry to say this Bro Jo, but how do you get off telling all your readers that guys and girls cannot be friends? This is completely untrue and is very unhelpful advice. I personally have many friends of the opposite sex and I am most certainly not dating them. And all of my friends are the same. What on earth is your motivation here? Would you have girls only be friends with girls and boys with boys, only spending time with the opposite gender when romatically involved? Because that is utterly absurd!
- Anonymous
Dear Anonymous,
It’s too bad you’ve written your comment anonymously, because we clearly need to chat.
First and foremost, let me say that my “motivation” is to help people, particularly LDS Teens and YSAs, by giving them my opinions on relationships and how people behave. I’m not always right, but I don’t lie. I do my best to stay true to the teachings of the LDS Church and her Prophets with out being too “Churchy”. I rarely quote Scriptures, Church Leaders and Conference Talks in this column because there’s a wealth of that already available. I tell it to you straight, as I see it, and hold nothing back, although I do try to inject a little humor because I believe that laughter is very healing. You may not like what I say, or how I say it, but I have to stay true to who I am.
I understand why you’re confused. In this Day and Age we toss around the word “Friend” and use it as a blanket statement to cover many different kinds of relationships. But that’s not how I’m using the word in this context.
I tell my readers that Guys and Girls can’t “just be friends” because, well . . . It IS True, whether you want to hear it or not, whether you agree or not. If you would take the time to READ what I’m saying instead of being so quick to get defensive, you might learn something and, frankly, this is a lesson you seem to NEED to Learn.
Let me walk you backwards through the concept.
As I define it, and as I have defined it here so often, a Friend is someone you can have lunch One-on-One with, that you can Buddy-up and Go to a Movie, that you can hang out with, that you can tell personal things to.
Can a man who is married have that kind of friendship with a woman who is not his wife? Should he?
How would my wife feel if I was going to dinner with some other woman, especially if she was very beautiful? If this other woman and I “hung out” and talked all the time?
Even if nothing physical ever happened between the other woman and I, even if I claimed to “just be friends”, at the Very Least I would be hurting my wife’s feelings. My wife would have to be thinking “what is he getting from this other relationship that he’s not getting from me? Anything a husband does that makes his wife feel that way is unkind, at the very least.
And that principle works both ways.
So then people say “Yes, but that’s only true for married people!”
Not so.
Even if neither person is in an alternate relationship, quality time spent between a man and a woman invariably must end in one of two ways. Either they will end up together, or the friendship will dissolve (or at least be put on hold) when one of them ends up in a relationship with someone else.
Surely you’ve seen this: Guy meets Girl; Guy is excited about Girl; Guy spends much less time with his friends. If Guy and Girl break up then Guy tries to get his friends back, at least until he meets another Girl.
And, again, it works both ways.
There’s one more thing that you, and ALL GIRLS need to understand. No Man would spend Massive Quantities of Time with a Woman he wasn’t attracted to. Now maybe that’s because we’re wired to . . . well, wired as Men; and maybe it’s because we’re shallow; or maybe it’s because of some other reason, but you need to know that even if we tell you we have no interest in you, that’s probably just a lie to get you to drop your guard and spend more time with us.
Let me be clear: You have NO GUY “FRIENDS”. What you have are several guys in your life who are either interested in someday having a relationship with you or using you until a Better Girl comes along. You’re their safety net, and may continue to be nothing more than that so long as you continue to allow them to label you in that way.
Is that why my opinion bothers you so much?
Is your head spinning trying to analyze your “friendships”?
Are you refusing to admit that you’ve misjudged Men and how they think of Women, in particularly You?
Now, I will capitulate that Boys and Girls can be friends, at least until either of them grows enough hormones to be Sexually Attracted to the Opposite Sex.
So maybe that’s your case. Maybe you and your friends have not yet reached puberty.
But I doubt it.
I should tell you that post-pubescent girls who get indignant about my opinion on this ALL suffer from the same malady: they’re not ready to accept their own attractiveness. They have this (in my opinion) misguided belief that if a Man finds them Exciting that he won’t also value their other fine qualities; now THAT’S Absurd (although sometimes true).
You can be friendly with whomever you want, I don’t really care. But you’d be wise to listen when I tell you that any guy that purports to be a Close Friend and spends Tons of Time with You is Interested in You on Some Level, even if he doesn’t know it or won’t admit it.
Beyond that you can be:
Co-workers
Acquaintances
Schoolmates
Fellow Parishioners
and you can even be Friendly.
But that’s not the same.
I have may Facebook “Friends”, most of whom are probably women, and we occasionally “chat”, but tonight I’m going on a Date with my Wife. We’ll go to Dinner, Hold Hands, she’ll take me by the arm, and we’ll talk a lot. And she’s the only woman in my life that will be treated that way.
She’s my Best Friend.
And I hope that some day a Good Man will become your Husband for Time and All Eternity. When that happens he will be your Best Friend, and you’ll be his, and no other friendship will even come close.
- Bro Jo
24 comments:
I believe what you're saying about the Boys and Girls can't be "just friends" mostly. I agree that it's hard to have a relationship with the opposite sex without having feelings for them, but not all cases are that way. I have plenty of "girl" friends and I don't have feelings for all of them. I don't really have feelings for anyone right now actually. I also think I have to say that sometimes being friends in the sense that teenagers like myself see it is actually helpful for us at our age. In example for girls there's guys out there like me who will do anything to protect a girl no matter who from even themselves. Guys sometimes just need someone to listen to them and that's where the girls come in because most girls have had similar problems or even worse problems and they usually just listen withouth interrupting. I've experienced these both myself and I've seen how helpful they can be in times of need.
What the heck CAN WE DO WITH GIRLS, THEN? MUST WE SHUN THEM? AVOID BEING THEIR FRIEND AT ALL COSTS? WHAT???
(sigh)
No, Matt, you needent Shun them; pay attention, please.
What I'm pointing out is that you, as a guy, can't "just be friends". When a Man spends large quantities of time with a woman it's because, on some level, he hopes it will become more than that.
If he didn't, he'd move on.
And I'm saying that this reality is something that both Men and Women need to realize because the illusion that the "friendship" has no other potential, context or direction is just that: an illusion.
By all means, if you're a single guy, be friends with all the girls you want, but let's not pretend that there's no desire for it to be something more.
This is why Married Men don't have Women Friends, or at least they shouldn't.
If you're Dating Age (Especially if you're already home from your Mission) and you have a Close Friend that's a girl, what you're supposed to do is TAKE HER OUT ON DATES!
Now, of course Matt, you may still be a Child, in which case it doesn't matter yet.
- Bro Jo
Randal,
I submit that you may be "friendly" to many girls, but that's not the same as being "close friends".
I talk to women at Church all the time; sometimes because of my calling, and sometimes because I care about them in a Big Brother kind of way. Sometimes I'm just being social.
But I would never text them in the middle of the day, or call them at chat for a long time on the phone. I wouldn't take any of them to lunch or suggest that we go for a walk or to a movie together.
Why?
Once you can answer that, you'll begin to see my point.
Like you, if I felt that a woman was in danger, I would rush to protect her, but that's not because she's my "Best Friend", it's because it's the Right Thing to Do.
You're right when you say that Teenagers like yourself should be friendly to, and make friends with, people of the opposite sex. I agree with the benefits and encourage it. It's helpful, educational, informative, and can provide needed insight and comfort.
But there's a difference between being Friendly, or being a Classmate or Acquaintance, than being a Close Friend as I've defined it here. Guys don't do that with Girls without wanting it to be something more.
I know that in our Modern Times the definition of the word "Friend" has gotten muddled and misconstrued; people are Facebook "Friends" with people they've never met or haven't even seen in decades (including me), but that's just not the same as Real Friendship. I'm not saying it's Bad, just Not the Same.
Would it help you and all of our Readers if I changed this Axiom to: "Men and Women Can't Be CLOSE Friends without the Man Wishing it was Something More"?
- Bro Jo
The semantics aren't as important to me. I am married, and have a few friends who are women. I don't "hang out" with them or do things alone with them, but I certainly do with them AND my wife together. I suppose by your definition then we would not really be "friends" but all that definition does for me is demote the relationship to "acquaintance" which is a label I don't like for some of my relationships.
The label "friend" is subjective I think. I have a few female friends, and I am also careful about not crossing marital boundaries, which for the most part involves not doing stuff alone with them (not that I have time to anyway!).
My wife is certainly more than a friend, or even a best friend. Also, it concerns me that people view members of the opposite sex only as potential affair partners--not saying you do, but many I have talked to seem to feel that way. It is sad. Friends can still be "friends" even with a few boundaries in place. We all have boundaries in our relationships.
Thanks for the post.
You're welcome, and thanks for the Comment, Adam.
Semantics are The Key, particularly as we try to Clarify our Relationship Communication.
And as your comment makes clear (and I agree with you) the word "friend" has many different meanings. We use it to describe everything from people we've known for decades to our casual associations at work to our clients to the people on our Facebook list.
I've even been known to address someone as "friend" in conversation ("Hey friend, how are you doing?"), and use it for a variety of associations, so count me among the guilty.
It's the "subjective" (or muddled) use of the word friend that makes where people stand in relationships unclear.
And as you said, if you were headed out the door and told your wife you were going to "spend time with a friend" you wouldn't mean a woman.
Why?
The wife would come unglued!
(and she should)
Why?
BECAUSE IT'S WRONG FOR YOU TO SPEND TIME ALONE WITH A WOMAN WHO'S NOT YOUR WIFE, EVEN IF SHE'S "JUST A FRIEND"
Once you understand why that is, and that the same reasons apply to both married and single men, then you'll understand why "Men and Women Can't Be Friends" or, perhaps for semantic clarification I should say that "Men and Women can't be Close Friends unless the person they're Close Friends with is their Spouse, otherwise the potential for it to be something more will always get in the way of the friendship, or at the very least have the appearance of impropriety"
Oh, and I do agree with you that objectifying women as nothing more than potential sex is Sad, Sick, Pathetic and Wrong. Men that miss out on those Associations and Acquaintances are missing a lot.
Again, thanks for Readin' and Writin' In!
- Bro Jo
heh that is the biggest problem with most people these days. Deep down inside all people have a problem with trust when it comes to relationships.
It's a primal thing. When a woman or a man see their mate with someone else their primal nature comes out and they get paranoid that they will lose them.
I've had relationships with plenty of woman that I was just friends with. these woman I could share my thoughts and feelings with and all of them had either a boyfriend or husband. I also was friends with the guys as well. It's all about trust and truth. If you don't have either of those with your partner your relationship is doomed to fail, but that is the hardest part of any relationship isn't it.
Now I think that if you are sexually attracted to a woman or man then it may be very hard to be just friends, but not impossible. It just depends on the people involved.
So what you're saying, and expecting us to believe, is that you have plenty of women friends, Close Friends, you go to dinner with them (no husbands or boyfriends), hang out with them, spend one-on-one time with them and talk to them on the phone(as Close Friends do) but that it's all OK, their husbands and boyfriends don't mind because they're HIDEOUS OGRE WOMEN that you don't find attractive on any level . . .
Liar.
I refuse to believe that you've spent tons of time with women you found physically repulsive.
Instead, I believe that you're not as "Close" with these "plenty of woman" as you think you were (or are). The occasional conversation at Church or School does not constitute a Close Friendship.
Nor does them not showing interest in you erase your original intent in getting to know them.
Further, if you really were close friends with these women, where are they now? Where is this harem of "friends"?
Seriously, if one of these women dumped their boyfriend because they're in love with you, and they came to you and said so, you wouldn't date them?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
- Bro Jo
Bro Jo-
I find your reasoning on this topic AMAZING and really hard to find in a man.
Me and my boyfriend are thinking about getting married next year and we always find eachother on 2 sides of the fence on this topic. I am an extremely jealous women. I don't like him talking to other girls.However, I find it good that he has opposite sex friends but, if your in a relationship you should only be mere acquantances (sp) like hi how are you? but thats as far as it should go i my opinion.
i just wanted to thank you so much for this. It really helped me in a current situation of mine. I love reading your advice so much, and it's helped me a ton! Thank you!!
Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. One of my fiancé's good friends is a female. They're in several classes together, they have lunch together, they study together- without me. Am I jealous? Heck no. Do I think he wants to get in her pants or "start a relationship" with her? Or vice versa? HECK no. He's not being her friend because he hopes the relationship is going to go somewhere farther. They're friends because they enjoy each others company, have a lot in common, and get along well. Not every boy-girl outing is defined as a "date". It's simply "hanging out and spending time together". After all, no one can spend every waking moment with their significant other. Everyone needs space, hobbies, and time to do their own thing. If we didn't, we'd get awfully tired of each other quite quickly. Ever heard of "absence makes the heart grow fonder"?
I'm sure my fiancé and his friend-who-happens-to-be-a-girl share personal things with each other that they don't share with me, I'm sure they talk about me (not badly) and about her boyfriend without either of us being present. Does it bother me? No, not really. Honestly.
"My wife would have to be thinking “what is he getting from this other relationship that he’s not getting from me?""
He could be getting another female's perspective, without my bias, about an issue we may be having, and she's probably doing the same. If it's something HE has a problem with about ME, but I don't see it as an issue, then there's no point in talking about it together. We're only going to fight, and we're not going to solve anything. If he can talk through the issue with another woman, because women tend to think the same, he can get another vantage point (other than mine), and possibly see a side of the issue that he didn't see before. And same for her, with getting another male point of view. If they resolve whatever problem either of them has without my or her boyfriend's help, then great. It probably saved us an argument or two.
You may not be jealous, but you're dumb as a post. Your fiancé is dating this woman, and from your letter I think they might be a better match than the two of you.
He may not admit that he wants to "get in her pants", but I'll bet he's thought about it, and I can sight-unseen people-unknown guarantee that he finds her attractive, even if he denies it. If he didn't he wouldn't have her as a friend and, like it or not, that's a fact. It's how men are wired. We just don't have women "friends" that we think are ugly.
If that doesn't bother you then you should at least be bothered by the fact that when things aren't going well with you, when you argue (and if you haven't, I promise you will) he thinks to himself "maybe I'm with the wrong woman".
Two things you need to realize:
1) when push comes to shove, he'll likely chose her over you
2) if you were in a similar relationship with another man, your fiancé would either be furious or relieved, the kind of relief that comes from easing a guilty conscience
With all due respect, and I say this with love, you're an idiot.
Here's one more question to ask yourself: if you find him wonderful and attractive and worth spending the rest of your life with, why doesn't she? I submit that she may, and that if her current relationship tanks she'll be after your guy in a heart-beat. If that happens on a day when he comes to her complaining about you, he's gone. If not, she'll do everything she can to get him to drop you.
Assuming he's not gone already. And, frankly, I think he is. If not sexually, than emotionally and mentally.
Good luck. I think you're going to need it.
- Bro Jo
Bro Jo,
I think you have nailed it. And I do agree, that anyone who fights this concept--is lying to themselves, and they do not understand the nature of the opposite sex.
Fact. Good men do not spend casual time around women of the opposite sex, if they are married or in a serious relationship. That is a...'duh'.
Bro Jo, you explained the social interactions quite appropriately.
When I got married, I had to cut all ties with men I had emotionally connected with. Why? Because when I was feeling bad about my marriage, I would talk to men who 'understood' me or 'empathized' with me.
The laws of attraction aren't all physical. When you're angry at the person you're committed too...seeking understanding is very appealing if it is coming from another person.
And you do NOT want that other person to be of the opposite sex.
Because then a natural affection develops...and feelings begin.
I don't care who you are, any committed relationship has ups and downs. And if you are running to your "best friends" that are the opposite sex,...you are looking for something that is inappropriate to find, unless it is with your partner.
I'm disappointed to see so many people fighting this concept.
-Grace
Bro Jo, I think you're advice is usually right, but perhaps you should be a bit politer.
Calling someone a moron and as dumb as a post is probably not an effective way to get them to listen to you, and will probably just put them on the defensive even more.
However, I think Anonymous does bring up an interesting issue that you have not really addressed which is: What about colleagues of the opposite sex? Work presents a far different situation than most of the high school ones you respond to. Both of my parents often lunch with groups of coworkers. Those of us in college or higher education often have to work closely with our peers in an academic setting. How do you do this without crossing boundaries at the point you are in a real relationship.
What about childhood friends then? What about people who knew each other since they were small and grew up together? When you're a kid, you don't think about dating and when you grow up with a person of the opposite gender, your bond with them is made-up of getting along in the past. Sure, those feelings may change when you're a teenager, but it's hard imagining being all... well... y'know... with someone you used to play in the sandbox with.
Not to mention, friendships can form between people of large age gaps, such as teacher and student. But I think that may be an exception because those friendships are usually parental and scholarly.
What I'm trying to say is, this concept doesn't quite work with me because I believe that there are a few exceptions and it's not all set in stone. Also, there's a lot more on people's minds than dating. It would be really distracting if all I could think about was girls. I would never be able to get school work done.
I will assure you, your concept does make some sense, but man is much more complicated than that! =)
I really don't understand this. I am female, and have been in a committed relationship with my boyfriend for over a year. I have another close male friend, one who I have known for much longer than my boyfriend. My male friend and I spend a lot of time together - we've even gone away on a trip together (by ourselves). My boyfriend knew about it, and he didn't worry about it. He trusts me to remain faithful to him (which I have been for the duration of our relationship). I do not spend time with my male friend because I want to date him. I spend time with him because I enjoy his company. He and I have different interests in common to the interests that my boyfriend and I have in common. I get a different view of the world when I talk to him. But it is my boyfriend that I come home to every night. Because my boyfriend is the only one I am in a relationship with.
I also know that my boyfriend has female friends that he spends time alone with. But I trust that he will remain faithful to me, like I have to him.
I agree that there may be some degree of attraction between friends of the opposite sex. But that doesn't mean that the attraction must be acted upon. What about trust in relationships?
- Ellen
I have read your question and answer and I believe the confusion here lies with a person's definition of friend is. You are right the word is tossed around too lightly. I would not want my boyfriend /husband to be in a relationship with another female for the following reason in the relationship with your significant other it will not always be a bed of roses. During those times people often share the problem with a"friend " to get feedback. They should be talking the problem out with their loved one, but unfortunately many times they don't. Often the friend will see their side and as they share more and more opinions together often they become closer and closer while a wedge is pushed between the previous mates. That wedge being the "friend " that understands them.I know of two instances where the friend was actually a friend of the wife, but they often did things in a group of three. The friend learned their problems and used them to get closer to the spouse. Now they are married to each other. No matter how much trust you have that the cat won't eat the bird It's best not to leave it as a temptation.
You have failed the internet.
Shut down your computer, throw it out the window, and light it on fire because that's likely the most productive thing you could do with it.
In conclusion? No, and I consider your argument misinformed.
Wow! This column is 16 months old and it's still getting heat. (So much so that the last poster may get their wish about my computer catching on fire.)
I see we have lots of passionate responders but not all of you read. That's okay! I'll reiterate:
1) No one agrees with everyone on everything; I love you even if we disagree.
2) Men, all men (not boys) don't have any Close Women Friends that they don't find attractive. Ladies, if you don't believe me, go ask your "platonic male friend" if he thinks you're pretty.
3) Again (what is this, like the fiftieth time?!?), I'm not talking about colleagues or coworkers or casual acquaintances or people you home teach or see in group settings or blah-blah-blah. I'm talking about close personal friends. The kind you hang out with one-on-one and call often and share personal details of your life with. Please pay attention.
Look, everyone who has a problem with my opinion on this, that's your right. God bless ya. But I submit that you're either: a) a woman who's freaked out, or b) a man who's being dishonest, or c) a child.
I'll give you one more point to chew over: as a man who loves and honors his wife, who is not and would never be unfaithful, but who recognizes the world in which we live, I never, NEVER have a closed door meeting with a woman, young woman, or child (whether at work, church, school, in the car, or elsewhere) without a trusted person just outside the door or, better yet, in the room (or car).
Typically I leave the door open, or use an office with a glass door, or when I've conducted Church interviews I make certain there's another person, typically the parent or spouse, right outside the door.
You do that as a man for liability reasons, as a professional to safeguard and show respect, and as a husband so that your wife never has to hear "I saw your husband talking with, riding with, alone with . . . "
It's not that Sister Jo doesn't trust me (nor I her); it's because she should never have to be placed in a situation where her trust can be questioned.
Does that make sense?
- Bro Jo
We discuss this on the Facebook Fan Page, too. If you'd like to join the discussion (warning: inappropriate comments are removed) click HERE - > http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=52304699634&topic=9474
- Bro Jo
Dear Bro. Jo,
Although you're incredibly rude at times, and I kind of hate to say it, I agree with you.
My best friend for years was a guy, and we stayed best friends while he had a girlfriend, and I had a boyfriend, and funny enough, neither of our relationships worked out...huh...until I met my future husband and I realized that my best friend needs to be him. Not that old friend from high school.
Once I figured that out I had a much better relationship with my boyfriend, even while my old friend (who was then seriously dating someone else as well) couldn't understand why I was distancing myself from him. It was very hard to do until we finally had a facebook conversation about it. He had finally realized that he was sacrificing his girlfriend's happiness by trying to stay current with me, and we both agreed to be more casual, friendly people together.
Now, I am happily married to my best friend, and he is happily married to his now very happy girlfriend-turned-wife.
It's true. opposite sex friends can only end up 2 ways - either married, or broke up.
-Amanda
well, it never said the friendship was close or even best friends. it just said friends in general. and i think that people can be friends with the opposite gender. I have lots of guys friends i don't have feelings for and they don't for me. there may be a little harmless flirting here and there, but we are just friends. and its also true there are lots of definitions of 'friend.' but what is yours? I just don't understand how you think a boy and a girl can be just friends.
In some ways I agree with this post, but also it is the most frustrating thing in the world for me. i wasted several years with a guy who wanted to be just friends. He fit all your qualifications, he called me all the time, we spent massive amounts of time together and shared intimate secrets, the whole nine yards. So by this logic that so many guys keep telling me, there's no way he was not into me (he was the one who more frequently called me). I was in love with him and YES, after a while of this I told him of my desire to date and see if there was something more. He not only said he had no desire to date me and was not attracted to me, but was annoyed that I would think we should date. Yet he continued to be close to me. I kept thinking maybe he would turn around and realize how he felt, because there's no way he wasn't attracted to me. Nope I was wrong and so was everyone else (and no he is not gay). And this is not the only instance where this has happened to me (this was just the most recent and difficult one). So this kind of thinking of guys can't have a friend that they are not at least somewhat attracted to leaves some of us feeling "what's wrong with me?" It's actually quite hurtful to me to see things like this put as a rule and then wonder why in the world I am the one and only exception to this rule. The one girl that seems to be put in the friend zone time and time again with no hope of ever getting past that point. Constantly wondering, what am I doing wrong? Am I really so unattractive that guys cannot see me as anything more than "one of the guys"?
You were his Back Up.
And it sounds like you've been cast in that role more than once.
You may want to stop being the Pal and start putting yourself in the "if I want to spend time with her I need to date her" category.
- Bro Jo
Post a Comment